He points out that although even professionals can offer faulty advise, everyone should keep in mind that posts are read by a variety of people in various situations and differing climates, thus the best advise, or preface, should be provided. Allan also discussed occassions where bloggers had offered criticism to fellow bloggers. He suggested that criticism should be kept to a minimum, if at all, as bloggers have a right to post their thoughts and experiences. He also points out the blessing that most garden bloggers seem to be much more forgiving than other forms of media. WHEW!!!
Of course, I highly advise everyone to read Allan's post for themselves in the horrible case that I have misinterpretted his views. I enjoyed Allan's post, and whole-heartedly agree with his suggestion to be kind to all. Afterall, that's what blogging is all about...journaling our experiences, posting our photos, sharing our thoughts, and connecting with fellow garden lovers. It's supposed to be FUN vs. a business website.
I also enjoyed the various comments posted by bloggers. Everyone had a slightly different take on the subject. First, I thought Missy of Missy's Garden portrayed her perspective quite well. I was inspired by her well-written point of view. I also agree with Meredehuit of This Grandmother's Garden that no matter what, we should not offer ill comments. Africanaussie also made some great comments about how she feels the blogosphere has extended her back fence. I especially like this point of view! Susan in the Pink Hat of Ink and Penstemon brought up some additional, noteworthy points. This is where I felt I, a novice blogger, learned some "Freelance Lessons"; "Contributor Correction" if you will; "Author Advise" or "Writer's Reproach".
Susan offered pointers to new bloggers including the importance of giving proper credit as well as obtaining permission to publish. She stated that even if one posts credit for a photo, for instance, this does not assume permission to post. Hmmm. This made me think.
As I wrote in my comment to Allan's post, I admit to using photos without permission when specific copyright is not posted or if the photo itself is not for sale or represented as a piece of art. However, I absolutely publish credit as well as link back to the source, and do not remove names / credits from the photo. Be that as it may, based on Susan's noteworthy opinion, I should not assume permission.
In my defense, I not only publish the source and link back but often drive traffic to the source's site/service/business. I have received much appreciation for this. However, admittedly, Susan is correct that I should not assume permission.
I sincerely want to do what is right, moral and ethical. And in no way, shape or form do I wish to offend anyone by overstepping my bounds. Additionally, I would honestly be horrified if I were accused of stealing, as that is never my intention. Whenever I have used a photo, quote, or information, I have credited the source and linked to that source, as I previously stated. Occassionally I have discussed, raved about, and even gushed with excitement or admiration about the source, creating more interest and driving more traffic to the source site. On the flip side, I must be aware that my actions may not be acceptable to others. Susan in the Pink Hat didn't just fabricate this point of view, and I'm certain she is not the only person in the world with this same opinion.
I feel as though I'm going around in circles. I could continue arguing back and forth with myself all day, but what I'd really like is thoughtful perspective. Thoughts, please!
24 comments:
Kimberley, I think there is a world of difference between "Hey, look at this wonderful picture Ms/Mr Blogger posted" and taking the credit for others' work. I really doubt that there would be many people who would object to what you do. I would personally take it as an enormous compliment.
Hi Kimberly, i think i am new here and the post is timely for those who really dont know the rules. In the age of Intellectual Property Rights, your post is much welcome. The rule for copyright is "it is yours from creation", which means anybody not permitted to use that owned property can be brought to court. This is the first time i see this kind of posts in gardening blogs, but i think not the garden bloggers are the thefts, but those who just dropped in for the loot. hehe. thanks.
Indeed, I did not fabricate my point of view. It came from years of reading contracts and dealing with permissions in the publishing industry. In many instances, most people won't care about you linking their photos back to them from your blog. But, you always have to consider the possibility that someone could come after you. RIAA anyone? In most cases, a professional coming after you for copyright violation may only charge you their usual permission fees; if they wanted to punitive about it or if they had a name to protect, they could sue you for copyright violation may only charge you a few hundred dollars. If they aren't being very nice or want to make an example out of you, the fine can enter the thousands of dollars range.
In short, always contact the rights holder and ask permission first, or just create your own content so you can stick to everyone else!
Kimberly -- interesting that you wrote about Allan Becker's post! I just read it last night. You always really rally the 'blog community'!
I think anyone that get's their "undies in a bunch" should remember that a BLOG is a personal journal. Regardless of the author's education, the content is opinion and experience. So whether the author is a novice or an expert - enjoy (or not?!) what is written.
Copyright - I appreciate the sensitivity of the subject. It opens a can of worms. I believe if you credit the source, most owners would hold you harmless --- if they have a stronger conviction, then they typically say so.
I don't have issues because my photos (all my own work; as someone in publishing I know what a mess rights infringements can be) are so crap, only an idiot would pretend to have taken them.
If someone has something I want to share, I link to their page; that way, there's no misunderstanding. Most people will freely allow you to use stuff if it's not for commercial purposes.
For me, the bigger thing is that no matter how shoddy my blog content gets, it remains all my own work. I sometimes prefer badly taken but honest photos, rather than souless but excellently executed ones.
As for advice, I always feel that anyone who takes advice from a blog named the Idiot Gardener can't have any complaints when the shit hits the proverbial fan!
This all gets a bit fraught! Someone - has manipulated photos found on the blogsphere. When I tried to explain all this to her - she says she doesn't put her professional work on her blog (so we CAN'T take it). If you do take your own wildlife photos, then you know how much time it takes, how hard you try.
Sometimes, if I want YOUR photo - I will write ABOUT it and post a link to you. That way Your photo stays on Your blog. It will still drive traffic to the second blog - if your teaser is inviting enough ;>)
Oh dear, I'm just a little 'ole nana who blogs about her garden. Any suggestions I may make are purely based upon my own opinion and experience in my garden. Hopefully, anyone reading my blog would understand that. I always welcome correction or the offer of a different technique. I am, after all, a novice gardener and novice blogger. As for picture lifting, I do think only a link to it in its original setting should be provided unless it has been offered for blog usage.
I take any information from the web as something to be considered not counted upon and surely most people do the same. Considering the source of the information is a given.
Having said all that, I did receive correction one time from a source I had linked to in a post. I had mixed up the names of two different programs offered at the extension center. I just made a note of correction on the post and that was that.
Hopefully, we hobbyist bloggers will just have fun, only take credit for our own words and photos and all will be well.
Thanks for that link to Allan Becker's post...very interesting and a good take on the garden-blogging situation. The thing I love about reading garden blogs is hearing each person's take and as many have written, getting hints of that plant passion between the lines. As for experts, well, I think each person's garden can speak for itself. We often can't see the personal gardens of those "experts" who write the garden books and magazine articles. I've seen many an "expert" in my zone of the world who has ne'er written a line about anything, much less their garden.
A long many years ago, I did publishing as well. We were strictly instructed on copyright issues by our employer. All of our (the company's) work had to be copyright noted, and any copied text had to be quoted and sourced, much as we learned back in school. Because it was technical writing, often any rewording of the material was also sourced, though not quoted. As for photographs and graphic art, copying was always a no-no, except for the licensed package we had bought and that free-domain stuff, but we didn't really have much need for those.
I'm still learning this Blog World thing, though you seem to have become comfortable with it pretty quickly. I do check where my readers come from, and am constantly shocked to see "facebook" and "twitter" as sources. I don't mind people linking up, but it does drive me nuts not knowing who linked and what people are saying about my posts or photos. I wish there were some way to see all these links. I've not been able to figure out how on Blogger. Any ideas?
I haven't read Allen Becker's post but will go there as soon as I post this comment. I agree that most garden bloggers (in my experience all garden bloggers!) are forgiving. I've found them to be outright supportive. I love garden blogging because of the warmhearted community of garden bloggers. My husband has a primarily political and opinion based blog and that blogging community is an entirely different animal.
My husband was a newspaper editor for almost 30 years and through him I have been especially sensitive to copyright issues. I never post a picture on my blog that isn't my own unless I know that it's free to use. I've seen a note on some garden blogs that invites readers to simply ask permission to use their photos. If I wanted to use another blogger's photo, that's what I would do. But I'd prefer to just link to the actual post.
I've signed the "blog with integrity pledge" and posted the badge to my blog. If you're interested in the pledge, find the badge on my sidebar at http://ginnysgarden.blogspot.com for a link.
An interesting discussion going on here, which seems to have in many aspects, strayed from the topic of Allen Becker's original post. May I add comment on two of those diversions. Regarding copyright: To new bloggers, know that when you search for a google image you can filter your search by clicking the adavanced search button to only include images that are labeled for reuse. Then you need not worry about violating copyright.
Regarding Twitter: Excerise caution when adding this feature to your site. I recently read dialog from Twitter on a frequent blotanists blogger's site that linked to a clearly pornagraphic website. This blogger would be shocked to know what she has been linked to. We are so careful to not allow comments posted without our approval, perhaps we should be more aware of what Twitter brings to our site.
Dear Kimberly, I am interested to note that you have found what Mr Becker writes to be of value. I deeply regret to say that I have never encountered such a hypocrite. You have obviously not received one of his unsolicited emails.
Have a relaxing and happy weekend.
Allan is a very insightful guy I'm sure though I have not read his post I'll take your word for the content. I tell you I don't even go to professional websites to learn anymore because personally, I wish to hear about EXPERIENCES, not just book knowledge or credentials-though some professionals have experience, many don't. I can give you examples of horticultural agents in my own county who have credentials but no experience in the matter they advise about. You know the old saying about teachers right? Each person must create a base of knowledge for themselves then do the deed in person whether it is gardening or golfing. While you may be able to learn fundamentals in the classroom listening to paid instructors you can learn these same fundamentals from 'amateurs' who may not be as forthright but who nonetheless, have experience such as what you get in the blogosphere. Advice is what we make of it and not where it comes from, like the old Nike campaign I say just do it and if you need advice from bloggers or professionals, nothing beats doing it in order to LEARN how to get it right. Advice or suggestions are just that no matter the source-we make it what we need, faulty or otherwise. P.S. I do have a disclaimer on my blog that covers all I post about. Learned it from Noelle.
I haven't read Allan Becker's post either, but now I'm just plain curious! I have a note on my blog to ask permission if someone wishes to use one of my photos. I always would expect that of anyone before they would copy and paste it to their own blog, even if it had a link back to mine. I think I prefer using the link alone, rather than adding someone else's picture, if I needed to make note of something on someone else's blog. THere has been just one occasion where I have included a photo that was not mine in one of my posts...that was when I needed a picture of a willow tree, which I don't have in my yard and didn't know where any were in my neighborhood. I have a link to the source of the photo and tried to contact the owner but there was no direct contact given. Otherwise, I like my blog to be mainly just my own stuff.
I have to say that some professionals also fail to provide enjoyable and engaging content... just some of them. Personally, I would rather learn what works in individuals gardens, since many of the books and pro websites are often incorrect even after going to print!
I think I may have posted one photo of a blogger firend, but I also provided a link to his site... I've also provided many other links too. Blogging is a blessing for professionals too, since it is a source of new information from the frontlines, especially since plants and situations keep changing.
When I post info, I always check it against other sources including my personal library of 50 gardening books, and if my experience is different, I'll be sure to say what is supposed to happen by the books. Info on cold hardiness for example.
I just read Allen Becker's post, and thought it was interesting. I don't see why a garden professional should necessarily get upset. Truth is I think the vast majority of us that are writing about our gardens, are doing so more for ourselves than for the benefit of others. We want to see our garden's progression over time, keep a record of what we've planted, what worked, what didn't, so we can learn from our own mistakes, and share our successes when we have them. I agree, blogs are great for inspiration, but for some information, I do intentionally seeking out peer-reviewed resources instead. Like with bees. I love learning about other's experiences, but for beekeeping fundamentals, I'm going to seek a textbook.
As for using images, I'm with Susan. Professionally it's been something I've had to care about as part of my job in the past, respecting copyright, and sourcing permission. A lot seems to happen these days under the guise of the DMCA, and I caught my own photos being lifted by a 'professional' organization earlier this year. Copyright law though is squiffy, and when it's not for profit, and for personal use only, some deem it acceptable. I look at it this way. If I can take the time to copy and cite another's work, I can take the time to ask. If that doesn't work, and I can't find something I need in my own collection, or that is in the public domain, sometimes I have to sketch it myself (remember the egg formation post...sheesh that was painful, but it was my pencil and paper creation LOL). Have a great weekend Kim!
Clearly a big debate. I was sourcing images today for my own use, just to show customers pix of plants and it occured to me that I am being fantastically naive NOT to embed some copyright in my own pictures. However I sleep undisturbed in that they are not that good!
Constant dilemmas!
About politeness:- I'm impressed how friendly and supportive most bloggers are with their comments but don't like it if they gush.
About photographs:- Permission is important in case blog owners want to use their photos elsewhere, perhaps professionally.
About expertise:- readers should take responsibility for whose advice they follow.
How's that for thoughts?
Esther
Great post! There's so many interesting issues being brought up here. I'm a new blogger (just 6 months in!) and have often worried that I have incorrectly quoted, screwed up or offended people. I've yet to find a magical rule book to blogs so I count on people correcting me where necessary and learning along the way. I have often linked to others blogs when they've posted something I find really interesting. While this is different than copying photos, my belief is much like yours, I'm redirecting traffic to their blog which is good. No one's complained yet. Allan's discussion about experts v. neophytes is really interesting. I've sensed a bit of tension but ultimately I think it's up to the reader to decide what they want to read and what information they find useful. I've posted 'how to's' the odd time as not everyone is a gardener and this basic advice can be handy for someone doing a google search but I don't advertise myself as an expert either. Although I might now post a disclaimer as Tina suggests.
Hi Kimberly, very interesting post and comments. I won't post someone elses picture, but I do like to point readers to another blog and I love it when someone points to mine. We are a fun community.
I just read Becker's post. My impression of the overwhelming majority of garden bloggers is that they don't pretend to give advice. What they do is report on their own experience and try to impart their joy in gardening. As in many other areas, the internet is leading to a great democratization of information, and there's no monopoly on anything anymore. Of course it's still important to respect property rights. Very seldom have I used a photo from another site, and always provide the link and name the source. Maybe that's not enough, although I've always hoped the original source might even be glad of the pointers. I know I would be.
Thank you, Kimberly, for making one of my musings, a topic of this blog.
I am glad that it has generated discussion.
I am also grateful for the serious perspective on accreditation presented by readers with a background in publishing.
Dear Kimberly
I think this is such an important read especially for new bloggers who don't have that many photographs in their archives. In a few of the first posts I ever made I used webshots or looked for wiki commons photographs.
Another thing I never see warnings about is hotlinking images. No one should ever do that as its stealing bandwidth from the owners blog aswell as stealing the image.
I have used other folks photographs twice on my blog but only once I had contacted them and received their permission. Both times they were delighted to share with me and I gave a link to their blog/website aswell. Other times I just place a link on my post for the reader to click on if they wish.
I have recently placed a disclaimer on my blog. Even though I am trained in horticulture and could write about various things every day - my blog is a journal about me and my own garden and I would rather just write about gardening subjects that happen in and around my home rather than write about things that I've just learned from theory but never put into practice myself.
Kim,
I think Allan is simply trying to drive traffic to his own site where he sells advice for a fee. I think he's *using* you and has probably used others for the same purpose.
He is trying to enhance and stimulate any controversy there may be over these issues for his own benefit and financial gain. He is defining it and then saying there's about to be a big conflict. He sets himself up as a "guru" - but, is he, other than in his own mind?
I am a writer and photographer. I don't particlarly like seeing my stuff turn up on other sites. But I think what he did is RUDE and crude, dropping in on your blog and who knows how many others to stir up guilt and have his name repeatedly mentioned by good intentioned commenters. If he really cared, he would have emailed you privately or left his own email address and asked you to respond.
Here are some ideas you can consider so you can stop feeling bad thanks to the rude "guru."
Now that the worm can has been opened and the critters are crawling out all over the place and you have posted a variety of worried and maybe scared comments ....
1. You can, if you are really worried, remove anything that isn't yours.
2. You can google for a little program that lets you "watermark" your own pictures with your name, or even just type your name on the corner by first putting them into a program that lets you type text onto photos, and then saving and then uploading to your site. This helps when someone else wants to use yours on their own site.
3. You can post text listing flower types with links back to photos where they can be found or simply advise to put the flower's name into google images where they can see a ton of them.
3. You can just take your own pictures. Between your own yard, the 4 botanical gardens on the Treasure Coast (there's one in western Martin County called Tropical something), public displays at Farmer's Markets, etc. you can find a HUGE variety to photograph! You might even go into nurseries and ask their permission to photograph unsold plants and offer them a notation such as "Vanda Orchid found at Jon's Garden Store" (I made up the name).
All of this would be loads of fun to do and then the negative folks can take their comments elsewhere.
I see nothing wrong with a person who knows copyright and intellectual property rules and has general advice for being legal when doing blogs going to someone's site and posting the information that they can provide free lessons for novice bloggers on their own site. As long as it is not an AD for their work they plan to sell! That would be spam in my opinion.
For sites that good-heartedly provide helpful technical blogging advice, bloggers can go there on their own and learn all they need to. The advice givers can provide downloadable PDFs as well.
Don't waste another minute worrying about it. Your personal journal, or diary, of your activities are YOURS. If you are talking about what you are learning, then it is what YOU are learning. You aren't telling others you know it all or they should do as you do. So there IS NO ISSUE about giving incorrect "advice." You aren't giving any.
Don't let spoilers ruin your fun. If you need information on how to use the photos of others or articles written by others on your site, go to a legitimate site that deals with these issues - a site that YOU pick from the many available - and learn all you want.
Wow! What a fascinating discussion.
I've thought long and hard about most of these topics. Here's my 2 cents:
1) All of my garden images are copyright free, no permission needed, use them at will. Why?
Because I am a classroom teacher and know that students need great pictures on many topics. So, IF mine show up on Google images first, that teacher has no troubles in finding my free use paragraph. I do say that it needs to be for an educational purpose and I always tell my students to find the permission to use an image.
I never use other images from other websites unless I research the copyright and permission policies. I always give credit, but don't link back since most are educational websites that don't need traffic to stay in business.
2) Garden bloggers are so friendly and wonderful. When I first started to get comments, I would actually dread clicking the button hoping that the comment would not flame my gardening efforts to pieces. 550 positive comments later, I'm 100% certain garden bloggers are the BEST community out there for support. I've made friends for life.
Great post! David/ Tropical Texana/ Houston :0)
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